If you work on the Sabbath, how do you justify that? And if we as a group stand together and say this we are wrong? I had a woman tell me just today that she prayed and prayed and God did not take away her lesbianism. But it feels more like an abusive home than a healthy one, a point also made in this blog. What is being said here is that for someone to say that God says that homosexuality is not a sin is in absolute and total error! All. Stop making excuses. Lots of talk of RELIGION-not FAITH Of course homosexuality us wrong-its everywhere in the Bible. People like this peddle a watered down (at best) version of Gods word. So I enjoy beer, whisky, and alcohol; but have never been drunk a day in my life (dont know what it even feels like to be drunk). Its kind and helpful. Stories of Jesus sharing love, community, and personal connection (even when he rebuked) fill the rest of the Gospels. It was put out publicly by the husband I think on their Facebook page that they felt they were led to believe that as long as a homosexual couple are faithful to one another the its fine just like a normal marriage. I read the wounded wolves article and was disturbed by it as well. Matthew 10:34-39 NKJV. Only confirmation bias and not cultural context could bring you to a 1st century Jewish Rabbi quoting poetry from the Hebrew scripture meaning anything about monogamous, consensual, same-sex relationships. Jen Hatmaker, is NOT a victim, maybe she is a victim of poor theology and hermeneutics. Writers love to do this and then proclaim, Look! Maybe. I Corinthians 5:10-13 NKJV How did a blog post calling into question the way that conservative Christians attack each other descend into comments by Christians (Im assuming) attacking each other about SSM? What has happened to jen is not great! Jesus said he didnt condemn Mary the prostitute, but she was to go & sin no more . If a sweet grandmother comes walking out of church and I kick her in the shins, she will probably react. THE definition of Christian marriage is in the Bible, beginning in Genesis. We cant receive grace from something we dont actually believe is a sin. 1,863 were here. Lets be more careful that our theology is producing good fruit. Ireland, 2022, 1h 34min, DCP, In Irish Gaelic and English with English subtitles. The few times he ALSO talks about marriage, he often talks about the END of marriages and how marriage can be a distraction and how it would be better to end a marriage than continue one if the continuation of a marriage would cause someone to go against Gods plan. It was the era of the Walkman, acid wash jeans, Miami Vice, Chernobyl, and the beginning. He just hates sin. Grace is just as available to her in Christ as it always was, and any believer whose heart HAS in fact been transformed by the love of Jesus and the work of Holy Spirit longs for her to be grounded in truth and to be reconciled. At the very least she deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. (At the same time I was reading all the blog posts about it. A song, actually. This is not the Jesus I know, the Jesus who ate with notorious sinners and scandalized the religious as a result. (Like you have pointed out, this isnt the first time something like this has gone down.) Yeah I wonder that too about the changing of the mind. But dont you see that disagreement doesnt immediately mean hate? Are you who create these arguments so entrenched in your open orthodoxy unable to see the futility of a man-made salvation where there isnt such a thing as sin, and therefore no need for a Savior from sin? I am so tried WITH Vicky of the implication that those that support same-sex marriage are not serious about the Word of God. My 2 cents. January 14, 2008 05:00 AM. Im out of the loop, but it seems to me that the comments are illustrating the point of the blog. Other indicators include: I think what conservative evangelicals do to their brothers and sisters who come to different views to theirs is a clear mark of unhealthy religion. Jesus came & died to forgive sin, not condemn people. They need to ask forgiveness and repent like all sinners need too do. So, I was without a job, no income; my dream was shattered, the church shut down, and the sheep were scattered. But its only Johns account that mentions the whip in 2:15. I hope Ive brought some clarity. Ahh yes. 2701 S Lamar Blvd, Austin, TX 78704 . I so agree with your point about how we handle disagreement in evangelicalism. But my confidence in what we call the church, or American evangelicalism is shattered deeply. There wasnt any theological issues, no heresy. . And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. Austin New Church 141 viewsStreamed 3 days ago 1:15:21 ANC 01-22-2023 Sunday Live Service Austin New Church 192 views Streamed 10 days ago 1:06:19 ANC 01-15-2023 Sunday Live Service Austin New. http://bible.com/114/1co.5.10-13.nkjv. People read Frank Schaffer! Youre at church to get help for any kind of sin not just this one, not to have it smiled upon so that no one will be offended. Seems so simple but we fail so often. But this only provided them with more ammunition and fueled their rightness. The loaded the big guns, and intensified their attack. She also said she attempted suicide. Did ANC follow typical ecclesiastical procedures regarding their change in position regarding an important, divisive, and controversial doctrine? At what point, in your thinking, does the church get involved? States Being informed invites the Spirit to lead, reduces our defensiveness, and gives us the confidence to love better. However, most respectful Facebook comments arguing for traditional viewpoints are deleted. Humanitarian. View Event Website . While people are free to express themselves many ways sexually, to do so outside of the marriage bed is against the message of Jesus. This is my view. Have you ever held a rattlesnake or chugged a bottle of Clorox? I know that I was matching hyperbole with hyperbole. But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Jesus didnt waver one millimeter from the Truths he spoke and nor should Christians who profess to follow Him. Austin Miniatures Western Barn Wild West Cowboys Conte . This is the problem with Rob Bell and the other guy mentioned in the Article. Get Started Join us Sundays at 10:30am. $99.99 + $51.77 shipping. To say that this was some kind of clue to the fact that people are born certain ways regarding homosexuality is twisting this verse. I have seen the same kind of thing happen to people very dear to me too. And theyre not always wrong. Wilshire Baptist Church, a Dallas-area congregation, voted in 2016 to extend full membership to homosexually active people, including leadership ordination and marriage officiation. This should surprise no one, least of all the writer. In your pursuit of eternal life, have you sold all your possessions and given them to the poor and if not, how do you justify that? Theres no way to prove everything that was actually said. Im being more outspoken on this forum, but where I live I am highly criticized for spending most my time with unbelievers and showing them grace and even going into dark places. Jesus did say those who are WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone. I believe Jesus did not say you may shame people if your sin is not worse than otherssin. But, unless you are without sin, who are any of us to be casting stones at a fellow sojourner in Christ? The Bible implores us to reason with one another, and Paul reasoned with the crowds from the Scriptures to prove Jesus as messiah. April 28: In response to a Christianity Today article questioning her accountability to a Church, JH tweets Men have ministries. Women have blogs. Ive pastored 20 years. . If youre going to browbeat multiple people with one Bible passage in a public forum, seems like you should actually be quoting the right Scriptures. Is that a strict standard? My study of the scriptures has helped me come to the conclusion that drinking alcohol is not sin if in moderation. Did FMCUSA release ANC because of their stance on gay marriage? []. I know I will forever be grateful to God for the two years I had at that church and the people I met that changed my life for the better. Re JH and accountability, its useful to look at the timeline of events that have led up to this. Our dream is to have an increasingly positive impact on the South Austin Community. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. The Gospel is good news but it cuts us all of us to the core. http://bible.com/114/1co.5.11-13.nkjv, Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. And it was allowed. And in a case where these well-known teachers, who are influencers of millions of the church, appear to err in their teaching, is it appropriate for those familiar with them to call them to repentance publicly? I do think Christians have adopted some culturally normative communication patterns; engaging in reflexive critique via social media and being far too easily offended, among them. Judging by the comments I see here some of you really, really need it. It does not hurt me or my neighbor, and I dont believe that love is a sin against God. Selena Gomez and Hailey Bieber drama: A complete timeline of their feud This story has been shared 20,804 times. Thanks evangelical Christianity. What does he know? If it is sin, theological self-justification is an affront to the cross. It was also Jesus who affirmed what exactly a marriage covenant is when he said, from Genesis, that a man leaves his father and mother to cling to his wife and become one flesh. The C-List celebrity world you pursued comes with its pluses and minuses. If you want to stay in the fold, youd best be subordinately silent. In the Dallas, TX area 7 Months ago, the church I founded as a church planter was destroyed from this kind of mentality (I graduated from Fuller Theological Seminary and have pastored for over 20+ years). Brian Austin Green praises Megan Fox & refutes other ex Vanessa's claims. Dude you are completely crazy and maybe you need to take. Are you saying Jesus sinned by chasing the money changers out of the temple? And if so, do you ask them how they justify it? I have been in the conservative church for over half a century, and Im getting to the point where I feel that if the conservative church wants to exclude me, then so be it. It doesnt mean that homosexuals shouldnt be allowed in the church however. ConcernedMeasuring.Locating If you think the person is sinning, that is something to engage privately. You just dont arrive at any conclusion that a Biblical marriage covenant is anything other than what Jesus said it was a man and a woman. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Oh, THAT sin. But those who claim his nameIm not even sure I want to be identified with them anymore. There is nothing more frightening to a human being (and this time I say this from personal offline experience) than the sense that the community is turning on them. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate. I know it is hard to wrap your mind around it, but they took a procedural item and made it into a essential doctrine. Do you practice that yourself? God allowed polygamy, rape victims being forced to marry their rapists, soldiers being allowed to keep women as spoils or war, brothers marrying sisters. They are the most miserable of companions. Well, the opposite. In empathy with both the Pro & Anti rhetoric about Personalities in Leadership, this smacks a bit of ideological differences of political alignment. Do you? My skepticism about wide-spread spiritual discernment amongst Church leaders ended young for me. Ive been reading it for many, many years. These are conversations for Christians about Christian doctrine, also. Two different categories. Maybe if someone doesnt want to be attacked for their seemingly unorthodox views, especially when one is a public figure, they should keep their views privately. You just made me so happy. The gospel of Jesus is the core of our faith. In the meantime, lets pray for our sister currently in the crosshairs of unhealthy religion, knowing that at any time it could be you or me who draws the ire of her detractors. Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I can ALSO say she is an exceptional follower of Jesus who has given her life in service of the. When you read Romans 1 and 2 together intelligently as one argument, you see that his whole point is that the people who are judging others are the ones in sin. To learn more about the artists and discover more of their work:https://a ANC 12-23-22 Christmas Eve Eve Live Service, Ascension Day. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you, so that at the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. Im so sorry you were harassed and abused. Actually S. Tannous what Ben E. Calvert said is VERY biblical. I dont know what it is that some of you have eaten but before commenting about a biblical issue perhaps it would serve you well to actually read the bible, brush up a little. Gal. Im so sick of the whole Christian hippie thing. church and others. Then yes, to say an act is not a sin (that really is) is saying we dont need Jesus to wash away that sin. Sin must be known as it is. I teach others as well publically that drinking alcohol in moderation is not sin. It seems to me there is room to fairly critique both speaker and listener here. Knowing how to respect and honour others is quickly fading from the memories of Western Christians, who live in small, disconnected bubbles of thought, belief, and practice and seem to feel ok with that. Deli studied . I personally think we should confront any teaching done by a well known Christian voice publically, since it is out there publically. And Im not suggesting that religious leaders shouldnt debate and discuss their concerns when members (or fellow leaders) appear to contradict or challenge these beliefs. March 26: Remaining elders, including BH, re-affirm the affirming position first announced to ANC via the internet interview. Pics by Pauly Littrell) church and others. This is not about a personal sin or a personal doubt, this is about her clear rejection of an eternal truth. I think most Christians would agree with that. Were elders allowed to fulfill their roles as decision makers for ANC as outlined in Acts 15:1-2, or were those who disagreed with the change in position asked or encouraged to leave? Maybe he chased them with a whip in love, perhaps? Thats a relief! That seems nonsensical. Why are other leaders so quick to forget this. The Hatmakers' congregation, Austin New Church, ultimately transferred from the Free Methodist Church, an evangelical denomination, to the United Methodist Church. We are an Open and Affirming congregation in the . I think its important, when considering Matt 18s instruction, to keep in mind how Jesus treated gentiles and tax collectors. I would like corresponding supportive evidence before Ill consider something as fact. Seriously. So I ask, is not healthy religion a figment of the imagination? My friend Brett Trapp pointed out several things that we have no unity on . Im sorry, but a gay couple can easily be married and so long as they dont divorce (for any reason save infidelity), theyre obeying GOD. We are a broadly evangelical association of churches, united by a set of core doctrinal statements, I started out in Christian ministry in the 1980s. One is the leaven of the Pharisees, one is the leaven of the Herodians, both are an affront to the gospel. Austin Miniatures Western Church Wild West Cowboys Conte Compatible Marx TSSD. After three years of intensive study, reading the Bible in its original languages, going deep into study with people of Faith on all sides of the issue.I came to see that the Bible didnt always say what I thought it did (or wanted it to). After all, its one of the Ten Commandments. But yes, darn it, we really do need a theology of sexuality. Praise God David that He never left your side and He indeed had a better place for you. Another form of self-justification is that my sin is really not sin and therefore I do not need to confess and repent of my sin and take it to the cross. God comes first. Anyway. As in, what you say is great. Grow up, Hatmaker. Jesus did say Burn thine enemies to the ground when they disagree with you. These guys are preaching or teaching heresy under the guise of being loving. (Take a gander at the Sermon on the Mount if youre puzzled.) Any more specific position is an interpretation.. Their main issue was they wanted to change the by-laws about the processing of hiring staff members. And it is wrong of this couple to teach this. All of scripture is God breathed. But since Hollywood and the media/culture in general are winning in making it look like anyone who thinks it isnt are big bad bullies, well, I guess it makes if the du jour topic st the moment amongst those so called Christians who want to be cool and maybe just maybe more accepted by the world and then hey look Im getting more famous and earning more money-just a thought.. Only In Christ can brotherly love or sisterly trust take place. A public figure often needs to be called publicly. Do you keep Saturdays holy? The third step, if neither of these causes restoration, is tell it to the church, and if [s]he refuses to listen to even the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector (Matthew 18:15-17). That said, theres absolutely no need to try a person in the court of public opinion as they suss out their own responsibilities, sexual or otherwise, before God. Thanks for those two references for healthy faith/church/religion. But why does the pendulum have to swing to the other side on this, blatantly disregarding some of the approaches Jesus took and instead taking a hippie approach? Wait. By saying homosexual practice is not sin, it is a form of self-justification rather than Jesus-justification. Do you believe in predestination? A church that brought me to Christ for the first time in my life, helped my family know and love God, led by a truly honest, good man, just vanished. MaintainingContaining In the end, people are going to follow their hearts/instincts. Keep them to yourself and you will have no problems from me Try to use them as an excuse to destroy other people in love and the Spirit, and Ill burn you to the ground. I couldnt take it any longer and chose to resign. It all matters, but, just sayin Im going to respond to just your first sentence. Jesus condemns every expression of sex outside of marriage given what the word porneia means in both Biblical and non-Biblical sources. That is the way it is handled in our church. This is the right thing according to Matthew 18, a teaching emphasized in the intentional-community churches Ive been part of since reaching adulthood but not in the evangelical ones I grew up with. This is the Jesus I follow Have mercy, people. Ive spoken personally to Brian McLaren about the searing pain of rejection he felt when ejected from the fold. both the shelter and the solitude of silence with the eloquence of Colm Bairad's gently captivating Irish . Jesus gives the guy a list of commands to keep, and then he tells him, If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me. (NASB) Jesus was very clearly telling the guy how to inherit eternal life. Well, I must share. Maybe youre PCA, and if so, I would ask you how you justify the idea of salvation through grace alone when verses like Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:13, and James 2:24 show very clearly that works are a part of it. Mike Frost , the author of this article, has attested to the fact that he believes homosexual practice is sin as well. Sad. Do you know anyone whos a part of the Churches of Christ? ANC: Austin New Church, Hatmakers church in Austin Now I know youll pull the old , Well, Im not saying itGod is!, The God who said it is not good for the man to be alone is the same God who says, through Jesus, Some were made this way and some were born this way. Important conversations, yes, but the Holy Spirit is the one that convicts and leads us into truth, not emotion, not anger, not verbal tirades. Maybe pull your head out of your ass and realize that God would rather see people happy than have a tenth of the population relegated to loneliness and eventual rebellion against God. People with a homosexual struggle who have homosexual relations are not ANY more sinful than me when I lust after a woman who isnt my wife or you when you harbor hate in your heart toward a neighbor. I begged these people to stop and shared with them how it was affecting me and my staff. Can core beliefs and clear tenets of faith survive for very long in the same room as life and health and love? Saying sin is wrong is not hate speech. With only a framework of religion, either The Right or The Left will show that broken Identity. Actually it is addressed in much of scripture. It does seem there is a growing, insatiable desire in Christian circles to hurriedly name the next heretic, rather than lovingly correct or engage in healthy dialogue. I love the teachings and have met all of the offenders you have mentioned. . Maybe try and figure out where your love went. It never says anything different then what he just said it does. Do I wish God would lighten up on his sexual ethic? He also said marriage was between a man and a woman only. Do you believe this, and if not how do you justify that? But I know that God is on His throne and showing us the true Kingdom at hand, and it doesnt look like what we thought it would. Your response: It IS a Gospel issue! Healthy religion does not indoctrinate, but teaches people to think for themselves; Healthy religion invites us to be humble about what we believe and know; Healthy religion does not invest in negativity; it does not major on what it is against but rather on what it is for; Healthy beliefs stay in tune with reality, never filling in the gaps for what we do not know. Forgive. 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